UPDATE from High Speed Rail below
The High Speed Rail’s Ridership Technical Advisory Panel  discussed plans for High Speed Rail service to compete with Caltrain in a workshop conducted in January, 2015 in San Francisco.
The report was quite clear about the intent to compete in the market for commute trips between San Francisco and San Jose. “In this instance HSR will compete with the Caltrain express service, as noted previously.”   The panelists sought to model the service attributes that would enable High Speed Rail to compete most effectively with Caltrain.  In order to estimate how successful the yellow trains will be at attracting riders from the red trains, the panelists recommended looking at the relative appeal of Caltrain’s fast express baby bullet service to the slow local service.  The panelists also talked about bicycle capacity as a feature that would favor Caltrain trains, since the High Speed Rail service does not plan for bikes on board.
The discussion focused on the intent to compete most effectively for riders, rather than to provide the most attractive overall service pattern for commuters who travel between San Francisco and San Jose. This travel pattern that would likely attract more riders in 10-15 years when High Speed trains start to serve the corridor, because of planned transit-oriented development growth in jobs and housing in San Francisco and San Jose on the corridor, and because a commute trip faster than the current hour might even attract more people to live in one city and commute to the other.
The ridership forecasts are being prepared for a 2016 update to the High Speed Rail business plan. The 2014 High Speed Rail business plan predicted that High Speed Service from San Francisco to San Jose would generate 2.5 million riders per year. Â If Caltrain doubles ridership from last year’s 17 million, that would be 15% of the local market.
The workshop included a handful of transportation planning experts, representatives of the Metropolitan Transportation Commission, the High Speed Rail Authority, Parsons Brinkerhoff, the mega-consultancy working on the project. But no representatives from Caltrain were present, nor were representatives from the cities of San Francisco or San Jose, which would benefit the most strongly from super-express service.
Will designing for competition provide better or worse service than designing for commuter convenience? Â Â High Speed Rail is expected to re-start planning for service on Peninsula corridor in the next few months, with schedule and blended service among the topics that will be discussed. Â Â The corridor is expected to carry 10 trains per direction per hour between San Francisco and San Jose, with six Caltrain trains and four high speed trains.
A schedule designed to maximize rider convenience might logically have 3 express and and 3 local Caltrain trains, with super-express high speed trains spaced in between the Caltrain expresses to give longer-distance riders the most choice, but a schedule designed for High Speed Rail to compete might have the High Speed train departure starts closely timed to the Caltrain baby bullet starts, to encourage riders to choose the fast train.  There are going to be other considerations like train passing. Readers with transit schedule planning expertise would be welcome to add thoughts in the comments about what schedule choices would provide the best service for commuters.
Update: We talked to Ben Tripousis, head of the High Speed Rail Northern California program, who added more context about the workshop held in January.
Tripousis explained that the panelists are academic experts on ridership modelling who are giving technical advice on how to estimate the number of riders who will take the High Speed Trains.  The reason to compare with Caltrain service is to make predictions about the number of riders who will be attracted by services of different speeds and types.
Their goal, said Tripousis, was “not to create strategies to compete for market share” on the SF-SJ corridor. “Our goal was never to compete with Caltrain service,” said Tripousis. Â “That choice of words [in the memo] was unfortunate. It was not talking about competition between the services.”
Tripousis reports that the High Speed Rail Authority plans to start outreach on the Peninsula corridor for the next phase of planning with the first meetings expected in September. One of the objectives of that planning process will to discuss schedule options “in order to create a complementary blended service.”
Hopefully as part of the planning process, Caltrain corridor commuters, city and employer stakeholders will speak up as part of that process, seeking a schedule pattern that provides the most commuter convenience, meets cities’ economic development goals, and takes the most cars off the road.
High Speed Rail expects to compete with Caltrain between San Francisco and San Jose http://t.co/U6WoieEChy http://t.co/QEZM2BsxzU
Let’s start with the background (this is actually VERY old news)
Ben Tripousis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhFjiABn8II&t=487
Jeff Morales: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYxieksoBAU&t=1299
SamTrans and their partners in crime have been at it even longer (remember how they planned to cripple the Baby Bullets?)
“Unlike the present Caltrain operating plan, the Baby Bullet trains do not pass (overtake) skip-stop trains. This is because the future Caltrain signal system and the CBOSS overlay project allow closer headways between trains. With closer supportable headways and improved average speeds for all trains, overtakes of Caltrain non-Baby Bullets by Caltrain Baby Bullets is no longer required.â€
http://www.caltrain.com/Assets/Caltrain+Modernization+Program/Blended+System/Caltrain-HSR+Blended+Service+Plan+Ops-Con-Report.pdf (page 26)
This was followed by the Tripousis/LTK Engineering Frankentrain with the missing 200 seats and the double sets of single doors http://www.ltk.com/uploadedImages/LTK/Project_Experience/Sub_Project_Experience/image003.jpg
winning over a sexy-looking Caltrain Bombardier Omneo that threatened to make HSR pretty much irrelevant between San Jose and SF http://www.newsbombardierfrance.com/2014/11/la-region-rhone-alpes-devoile-son-regio.html
The final nail in the coffin was the “no more toilets” affair (HSR trains have 2 toilets in each 1st class car and one toilet per car in 2nd class).
The end result is that a 15% Caltrain ridership mode shift to HSR is not even close (40-50% is more like it) and Caltrain will not survive a $50M annual hole in the farebox.
The question is does anyone care and, if so, what are we going to do about it?
To be continued…
The link provided points to a pdf dated March 17, 2014. Is this the correct document?
On a quick reading of the report, the panel simply discussed the fact that:
1) HSR and Caltrain will be perceived differently
2) HSR will compete with Caltrain on SF-Gilroy in some station pair
And how to account for them in ridership forecast. These are unavoidable facts since HSR will share the same corridor and stations. There is no need to insinuate a conspiracy to cripple Caltrain.
@William Kindly help the rest of us understand which part of “Unlike the present Caltrain operating plan, the Baby Bullet trains do not pass (overtake) skip-stop trains” it is that you do not understand.
@Roland, I didn’t read your links. But just from your quote it said Baby bullet passing skip-stop trains would be “not required”, not that it can’t be done.
High speed trains are REALLY nice!
http://www.kaemena360.com/360/Frecciarossa-1000/
@Roland
The majority of Caltrain travel is not between San Jose and SF so you’re claim of a 40-50% capture by HSR is completely impossible. You’re just trolling.
Why did they cooperate again Dept: High Speed Rail plans to compete against Caltrain SJ-SF… http://t.co/lEeSupZaAE
@William – the document is recent. The March 2014 date is a typo by the authors, it probably should read March 2015.
@William – the document is recent. The March 2014 date is a typo by the authors, it probably should read March 2015.
Here is the link to the rest of the documents: http://www.hsr.ca.gov/About/ridership_and_revenue.html
Right now, they are only stopping in Millbrae & Redwood City but it will be pretty much game over for Caltrain if they add stops in San Mateo, Palo Alto and Mountain View.
The only thing that might save Caltrain is their ridiculous fares:
http://www.hsr.ca.gov/docs/about/ridership/ridership_CM_and_forecast_CHSR_RR_2014_BP_Forecast_Tech_Memo_041814.pdf (table 3.1 on page 27)
There are two documents. The ridership planning is recent, from 2015: http://www.hsr.ca.gov/docs/about/ridership/RTAP_Findings_and_Recommendations_Oct_Jan_2015_Review_Period.pdf
Then there’s the earlier 2014 business plan which forecasted the amount of ridership that High Speed Rail would get between San Francisco and San Jose.
http://www.greencaltrain.com/2014/02/high-speed-rail-super-express-from-san-francisco-to-san-jose/
Caltrain can determine the fee from HSR based on financial impact.
With increasing TOD, Caltrain should focus on frequent local service and short distance riders who pays higher $/miles. This will increase seat turn-around but less impact on seating capacity.
@alevin – I wouldn’t use the HSR ridership numbers from the 2014 Business Plan as a basis to assess the ridership of an SF – Gilroy HSR line. The 2014 Business Plan was based on an SF – LA buildout, with short-distance intra-regional fares set disproportionately high to encourage long-distance inter-regional trips rather than intra-regional commuting. Likely an SF – Gilroy HSR line would be priced lower and attract a higher ridership than the assumptions in the 2014 Business Plan, as there would be no need to save seats for passengers traveling south of Gilroy.
But yes, the new plan to skim the wealthier passengers off the Baby Bullet service (those who are willing to pay a 50-100% premium over Caltrain fares in order to get a dedicated seat and slightly shorter journey time) and also induce new riders, primarily business travelers who would previously have driven their own car or a rental car. And they will do the same down south, between Palmdale and Anaheim, with the only difference being that Metrolink is such a bad service that more of the HSR passengers will be new riders rather than people switching from conventional rail.
The reason for this change of plan is because the authority has realized that neither of the two Initial Operating Segments proposed in the 2014 Business Plan (SF – Bakersfield and Merced – Burbank) are going to be constructible with the funds available. So instead they will go for two shorter and cheaper Initial Operating Segments, making use of conventional Caltrain/Metrolink track for the majority of the route, rather than one long IOS that would have run mostly on dedicated track.
A useful point of comparison might be the Heathrow rail services, which serve a 16-mile Heathrow – London Paddington route comparable to Millbrae – SF. Heathrow Connect runs a 32 minute, 5 stop journey costing £10.10 for standard class only, while Heathrow Express runs a 15 minute, nonstop journey costing £21.50 for standard class or £29.50 for business class. Naturally, most commuters take Heathrow Connect, and most business travelers take Heathrow Express.
Translate that to the peninsula, and we may well see business travelers (e.g. tech company CEOs and VPs) using HSR to shuttle between Silicon Valley and SF for meetings, or flying into SFO and then using HSR to get down to Silicon Valley. (BART will probably still dominate trips from SFO to SF because of the Millbrae transfer penalty.) Caltrain will still be the primary service for commute trips, though it’s likely that some well-paid tech workers who don’t need to be in the office every day would use HSR for the days that they do need to commute.
I don’t think competition is much of a concern. I think talking about it now is a distraction. In Europe, Japan, and in NEC, there are station pairs where they are served by both regional commuter and long distance high speed trains. They both have their own market. There’s no prohibition on short distance riders from taking high speed rather than regional trains, but high speed trains are priced appropriately.
Since Caltrain will continue to own the tracks, they’re all Caltrain riders even if they’re carried on trains operated by JPB. HSR should contribute to the maintenance of the corridor so I don’t see why this is a problem.
Everyone reading this post needs to read what Jon and Michael wrote last year: //www.greencaltrain.com/2014/02/high-speed-rail-super-express-from-san-francisco-to-san-jose/ because there would be no conflict in the Peninsula if Caltrain & HSR operated like Eurostar and Southeastern High Speed.
The problem we need to address is that HSR’s new business “plan” is to go after the Caltrain Baby Bullet market and Caltrain does not have a survival plan in place.
Silly Question but what will be the time difference from SF to SJ on HSR vs. “Baby Bullet”?
http://www.greencaltrain.com/2014/02/high-speed-rail-super-express-from-san-francisco-to-san-jose/ (fix earlier broken link).
As Jon pointed out earlier, Heathrow is another good example:
– Heathrow Connect: 25 minutes (5 stops) every 30 minutes (£9.50)
– Heathrow Express: 15 minutes (non-stop) every 15 minutes (£21.50)
There is no conflict because both services are operated by the same company (Heathrow Express)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heathrow_Airport_Holdings#Rail_owner.2Fmanagement
A similar Caltrain service would consist of 4 bullets and 2 locals every hour except that the bullets would be more expensive than the locals for the same trip.
So the question is whether this is the way we want to go (with identical fares between stations) or ??
Final question: where does that leave “High Speed” rail?
I think that the answer should become pretty much self-evident some time before noon on Friday…
@Mountain Viewer. The current answer is 7-9 minutes difference:
– 44:37 to 47:20 (average 45:17) for HSR
– 51:19 to 56:18 (average 52:58) for Caltrain Baby Bullet
http://tinyurl.com/pt45mgs (tables 16 & 17 on page 29)
The reason for the difference is that HSR stops at Millbrae only and the Baby Bullets make 3-4 additional stops.
The bottom line is that the only difference (given the same schedule) would be that Caltrain would carry bicycles and standees while HSR would have leather seats, a bar and toilets.
http://www.kaemena360.com/360/Frecciarossa-1000/
How about they cooperate instead of compete on this stretch? At least the planning mentioned here sounds more like a cooperation than a competition anyway. If caltrain/cahsr was more like European trains you’d have a schedule like:
– 4tph (every 15 minutes) train that expresses from SF and then does local stops in Silicon Valley
– 4tph local SF – RWC or similar (hopefully extended toward Dumbarton Bridge)
– 2tph High Speed towards LA, maybe up to 4th during rush hour
This is an effective turn up and go service for the local/regional trains and would help to really boost all day Caltrain ridership. 2tph for new high speed rail is still quite a lot in Europe, although 4tph wouldn’t be unheard of.